(no subject)

[fan_eunice]

And now I make a post about what is both a...problematic trope, and one that I love like pie within context. Cut to avoid spoilering,



Okay, so. We have a repeating thing in Moffat's Who which I have a complicated reaction to. Y'all know what I'm talking about. The Doctor meets women with whom he will or has an intense and possibly romantic/sexual relationships with when they are still children.

Stepping back I have no trouble seeing why this is a problem. However, my primary complaint with the fact that this happens is that I'd like to see it expanded to include boys, not that it happens at all. That it has been, so far, only shown with girl children is what pings my 'no' radar. And in my head I fix that by filling in all the other times, but dang I wish they'd show them.

'Cause here's the thing, the Doctor lives his life from an outside perspective out of order. And it is not unusual for him to meet people in various phases of their lives where a very short period of time has elapsed for him (and this happens to his companions too, witness Canton who Team Tardis meet first as an old man, and then a younger one with a gap of all of a day in between). Throw in the bit where he's hundreds of years older than them to begin with and...

The Doctor has to be able to relate to people in the phase of life they are in while he is interacting with them, or he's pretty much doomed to only ever having a child/adult relationship with anyone. And sometimes it does shake out that way, as hard as I ship it that barrier does exist to an extent with Doctor/Amy, even where he obviously has some level of attraction to her adult self (made even weirder by the bit where now she's also basically his mother-in-law, oh Who...*flaps hands around*).

So, um, yeah. I think there is a fundamental contextual difference between the Doctor meeting someone as a child and having an adult relationship with their grown up self and...say...meeting the child of family friends as an 8 year old and dating them later in a linear progression.

Factor in that this show is also aimed at children to not insignificant extent and we are also then getting into childhood fantasies. The idea that there are certain grown ups you meet at age 8 or whatever and you are GOING TO MARRY THEM when you grow up, which is an intense sort of experience of emotion I think we all have. Doctor Who is playing on that as well rather strongly, I think, by providing a method by which that could happen in ways that aren't restricted and/or skeevy by a linear growing up process (who remembers actually having a crying fit over the fact that it would take too long to grow up and marry so-and-so as a kid? Is it just me?). I don't think we should underestimate the attraction that has for a kid watching the show. I would have eaten that up with a spoon when I was 7.

So, we come back to what is my issue here. That the same sort of experience could, and very likely does outside the limited one hour a week context we have, happen with boy children the Doctor meets out of order. Basically, had there been any kind of scene where the Doctor hds, say, a significant encounter with baby Rory as well, I'd be golden.

Thus end the rambling.

Comments

[nestra]

How adorable would baby Rory be?

[fan_eunice]

OMG so freaking adorable. There is a baby Rory that lives in my head and it makes me go AWWWWWWWWWWWSQUEEEEEEEE a lot.

[such_heights]

Right? :D And yes, I agree with this post. It plays right into this dream that you could have an adventure with the Doctor right now, as a kid, and then grow up and that adventure would continue.

So I totally get why it bothers people from an objective perspective, but I'm with you on kind of loving it.

[fan_eunice]

*nodnod*

And the thing about preadolescent crushes is that you're not imagining them being 20 years older and all that comes with that. You are picturing you older and them as they are right then. In reality it doesn't work like that. On Doctor Who? It kind of does. :)

[fannishnonsense]

Yes, this. I think he's also playing on the adult part of the audience that grew up watching the show, or at least Amy's experience resonated very strongly with me as someone who has been "in love with" the Doctor since I was tiny. Though in that case I suppose it's even weirder that we've only seen it happen with girls, since that would probably be Moffat's own personal experience as well. Hm.

[fan_eunice]

Yah, it puzzles me actually. Because on the one hand he's clearly playing out some strong childhood fantasies, which is why I think he keeps going back to this well. On the other hand...he's not in them. And while I'm nowhere near the school of OMG WORST MISOGYNIST EVAR with regards to Moffat, I do think the 'only girl children' is an expression of sexism I could live without.

Like, boys aren't supposed to still want these things or have those strong emotional attachments when they grow up? Or of course girls would still be invested in the fairytale? I dunno. It's weird and frustrating mostly because I think it is a common emotional experience that could be much richer if expanded.

[faynia]

Do not troll IMDB for the cast in the next episode. Just saying. *whistles*

[fan_eunice]

Hee, I am pretty religious about spoiler avoiding. :)

[some_stars]

I really agree--I love the idea of the Doctor meeting people as children (and I'd love something in reverse, where he meets someone and then ages a few hundred years and several regenerations, then meets them again maybe a year later in their time), I love the time-travel-ness of it all and I even love the idea of people being so influenced by him that they mold their adult selves around the memory of him. It's not exactly a wholly positive idea but it's fascinating to me and compelling to watch...it's just that it's ALWAYS WOMEN. Four for four! (And three out of those four became sexual when the girls grew up. Women have other ways of being fascinated and devoted, Steven!)

Just, man...it's not even that I think this says something particularly skeevy about Moffat's psyche, although I reserve the right to make those jokes. It's that he doesn't seem capable of projecting these emotions (or...most emotions, whole nother complaint--actually, edit, re: your comment to someone above about "boys aren't supposed to have these feelings," basically that but extended to men as well, not supposed to have ANY feelings that aren't about women or occasionally honor) onto boys, imagining men in that kind of relationship with the Doctor--even minus all the sexual aspects, whatever, that's not what matters really. But apparently only girls can be awed and amazed and drawn to a mysterious wonderful man, and only girls' lives can be shaped around that man for years/decades to come. It's just--something. A really icky feeling created by repetitions that are, by themselves, pretty awesome. Heck, I could have really dug The Time Traveler's Wife if it hadn't had various other sexist trappings, I certainly tried harder to dig it than I really should have because the premise was so attractive.

(Semi-relatedly: a story I'm working on and may, someday, maybe even before the end of the hiatus, actually finish, will involve a baby Rory scene. I'm basically more excited about eventually getting to write that than I am about getting to the sex scenes. (Which are entirely unrelated. Just to be clear.))

[fan_eunice]

*nodnod* I actually think he's done really well in placing Rory in the role of caretaker and devoted partner that's usually occupied by women, from his profession as a nurse with all the touches of him being the first to ask 'is everyone okay' and checking on/caring for the wounded, while Amy is the adventurer. I'm particularly fond that he's essentially taken Amy's last name, as has their child. Which kind of makes the, as you point out, FOUR girlchild/woman and Doctor thing more baffling and frustrating.

Thing is, like I said, I love this trope. Both as an adult and my inner child. I just want to see it expanded. I mean, come on, the little boy from the Silurian two parter was enthralled with the Doctor and you can't tell me their encounter didn't have a life long effect. I want more of the second half of that story too.

[some_stars]

Someone on my journal just pointed out Kazran Sardick, which I don't think is a full counterexample to "WHY ALWAYS GIRLS WHY" and is different in some important respects, but it was interesting because it is a partial counterexample. Moffat, do that more! Boys have feelings too! I see that you know that, now carry it out!

(And yeah, despite my constant criticism *g* I am quite happy with Rory on the whole. Mostly I get annoyed because Moffat et al seem constantly afraid to fully commit to him, like they always feel the need to throw in some ambivalence about nontraditional masculinity just to reassure...someone. But still, he's THERE and he's RORY and that is very, very wonderful to me.)

[fan_eunice]

Huh, huh. Actually, now that you've brought up Kazran, I do think there is a very strong parallel there if you map Kazran's experiences with Abigail and not the Doctor. The childhood fascination/prepubescent crush shaping the way he looks at the world (for both good and ill), and her experiencing his growth as a near instantaneous thing allowing her to connect with his adult self in the same place she was when he was still a boy, even though he is not.

Yah, I think this is a very deep seated thing with Moffatt (and one that hits my buttons pretty hard too, which sometimes I think he just GETS ME) and now I'm thinking this may be a more a function of unconscious heterosexism than sexism, tbh. Like, the dude is pretty heterosexual, so he's gravitating towards playing this dynamic out between boy/girl and since the Doctor is a boy (currently, heh, bless you Doctor's Wife), well...yeah.

Huh.