(no subject)

[fan_eunice]

Doctor Who fandom? Don't make me come back there. What the everloving fuck. *dives back to safe little pile of sane people*

For future reference, a few things that are not feminist:

1. Slut shaming. No, not even if you couch it in concern that wearing short skirts sends the wrong message that women are whores. And they shouldn't be sexually confident lest people think they are whores. Or act in any other whorish way that only whores would act, and if they'd just act like proper ladies you wouldn't have to go around pointing out their whoredom. ESPECIALLY THEN.

2. Insisting that women who are smart, confident and proactive are unrealistic. Dismissing every single female character exhibiting such traits as unrelatable/smug/too much. Perhaps the word you're looking for is uppity? Bonus points if you immediately start falling all over yourself every time a male character exhibits such traits.

3. Pretending you are engaging in feminist critique if said critique only magically appears in relation to one specific showrunner, show, and his specific characters, and gleefully ignores either the broader context of media as a whole and/or the rest of the show's run. Clue: Media is steeped in sexism. All of it. Yes, even that thing you like. It's a tangled, complicated mess that is broader and deeper than which flavor of it entertains you more. Hint: petty nitpicky bashing of female characters as a method of critique? Not helpful. Ever. And please see number one again. Memorize it.

I really hate people. Except you guys. You guys, I love.

Comments

[dira]

I love you and I also love Amy Pond, whether she is dressed for Rio, or a kiss-o-gram, or just to show off her fabulous long legs because they are fabulous and so is she. ♥

[fan_eunice]

*smooshes*

She is so fabulous. \o/

[nestra]

Dude, don't go out there again. I have seen almost nothing of what you summarize here. And I'm happy. I'm in happy world.

[fan_eunice]

*whimpers and clings*

I normally don't...or I just skim enough to get irritated and head back for safety! But I was bored, 'cause teenage boys have this habit of sleeping during the day instead of entertaining their mothers, and then I was reading without backing away and it was all clicking into place with the other things I'd managed to go lalalalala fingers in ears about and...and...it was post or randomly punch the next person I see in the face.

[fannishnonsense]

We love you too!

Fandom is just terribly depressing. Every time I think it's safe to venture out into it I run smack into some sort of major fail. I think from now on I'll stick with the people I know are awesome instead.

[fan_eunice]

For real. I knew there was a reason I try to keep my arms and legs inside the car at all times and measure out my doses of the outside carefully.

*attempts to scrub brain*

[violetisblue]

Given that River Song has long since been declared a "Mary Sue" because she has a graduate degree, I honestly do not understand why any of this surprises anyone. But you know what, seriously, whatever. I love this show again and if they don't it's not my problem, just like the epic whining about Uhura didn't make a jot of difference in how much I loved ST:AOS. More for us!

[fan_eunice]

I'm not surprised by it. I just...usually skate around the edges of it and then back away grumbling in private. I really should not have continued to read. Next time I'm doing a mad dash for the nearest sparkly pony and riding off into the sunset.

[violetisblue]

Van Gogh! Bill Nighy! A Richard Curtis script (okay, I know some folks hate his films, but I'm excited)! Epic SUSPENSE AND ANGST AND THINGS lurking all around the corner! I find all that far more interesting than WAAHH WAAH BAWWWW I'M THREEEEEEEATENED BY IMAGINARY WOOOOOOMEEEEENNNNNNNNS, I don't know about you. :-D

[fan_eunice]

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. Way more interesting.

My squee it is solid (though currently a bit tear soaked)

[violetisblue]

THAT OTHER THING? IT WILL ALL BE FIXED! OR...OR I'LL HAVE VERY STRONG WORDS FOR THE PRODUCTION TEAM AND, AND, SOMETHING! YOU AND I WILL MAKE PLANS!

[fan_eunice]

I AM FULLY ON BOARD FOR VAGUE PLANS TO DO SOMETHING.

(I suspect they involve eating an entire batch of cookies and a pint of Ben and Jerrys in one sitting....THAT WILL SHOW THEM)

[hafital]

I thought of you, with the Bill Nighy. I was like, BILL FUCKING NIGHY IS ON DOCTOR WHO. ALL IS RIGHT WITH THE WORLD. AND VALI WILL BE HAPPY. Seriously, that's what went through my mind.

re: Amy Pond = OH WHATEVER. SERIOUSLY. You know, I can not like everything about her and also not devolve into inane blather that is hypocritical and makes no sense. Seriously DW fandom with it's ISSUES are greater than either show runner's issues, at this point. SHEESH.

[violetisblue]

"I thought of you, with the Bill Nighy. I was like, BILL FUCKING NIGHY IS ON DOCTOR WHO. ALL IS RIGHT WITH THE WORLD. AND VALI WILL BE HAPPY. Seriously, that's what went through my mind."

:-D :-D You would be right! And of course this is our first glimpse of the Twelfth Doctor, MY TINFOIL HAT TOLD ME SO.

"You know, I can not like everything about her and also not devolve into inane blather that is hypocritical and makes no sense."

I haven't liked everything about Amy, for that matter, I can in fact understand why someone else might find her personality annoying, and yet I don't have to resort to implying that the actress who plays her "must have" slept with the producer to get the part. Imagine that!

"Seriously DW fandom with it's ISSUES are greater than either show runner's issues, at this point. SHEESH."

Amen.

[skipthedemon]

Every single word of this. And I say this as a woman who automatically winces at bit sometimes at the short skirts. It's cultural programming; I *know* it's cultural programming. One of my responses to sexism in regards to clothing (as it impacts me) is to dress 'boyishly', if not out right cross dress. Which usually covers up more than women's clothing. It makes me feel strong and safe. So, yes, I reflexively, defensively sometimes get judge-y of women who take the sort of opposite approach.

This doesn't mean Amy is a bad person or character. It means I have *issues* I hope to work through eventually and our culture in general has a problem.

Number 2 is beginning to piss me off in major, major ways. Just....argh. How can we as women ever own our awesome, if we can't even allow female characters in fantastic (not even meant to entirely realistic worlds) to be as awesome as we hope to be?

[fan_eunice]

Yesssssssss. Hell, me, I shop in the men's department of Target. And hell, there's a decent argument to be had about the male gaze in the form of the camera and some of the lingering leg shots. But that's not about the outfit a woman chooses to wear. Especially if the actress had a strong say in picking them out.

Not to mention that the outfits themselves are more kicky, cute, and fashion young than blatantly sexual in the first place (not that it would be okay to slut shame if they were, but it makes the OMG SHE HAS LEGS argument even more ridiculous on it's face).

And YES. I am so tired of dude characters getting a pass on/being admired for the very characteristics that start getting called out the second someone with a vagina possesses them.

[skipthedemon]

River hate in particular is pissing me off. I can hear in my head Jack and/or the Master (well, probably a saner incarnation than Simm!Master) saying about 9/10ths of the lines River gets smacked down for. But they can get away with it, apparently.

[grlnamedlucifer]

Part of me wants the Master to regenerate into a woman the next time, just to watch Fandom's heads explode as they try to explain away why they suddenly hate hir has nothing to do with it. But then the sane part of me knows that even then most of them wouldn't get it.

[skipthedemon]

Dude, it is my crack I-don't-really-believe it fanon that River IS the Master regenerated. What? The Master's already killed the Doctor once. He would totally tell the Doctor he/she/zie hates him in that tone River does. And the Master *would* punch the Doctor in the face and handcuff to save him, in the end.

Ok, there's lots of other stuff that doesn't fit, but it's a fun thought. The Master has always struck me, in a way I can't quite place my finger on, as self hating gender queer anyway.

[fan_eunice]

I know, right? Hell, Jack has his moments that make River look downright *modestly demure* and it gets lapped up with a spoon.

[grlnamedlucifer]

What is it about this fandom that brings out so much hate, I don't get it. (Not to say there isn't fail in other fandoms, but why do Who have so much of it, seriously.) I seriously need to stay away from the comms too, if only to keep my sanity. *hugs the hell out of my circle*

[fan_eunice]

I don't even know. Every year the distance from which I will stray from small f'list/circle interaction regarding Who gets shorter and shorter. I love meeting new people and talking about MAH SHOW, but I am just not willing to brave the wilds anymore to get there.

[gelasius]

Yeeeah, I don't know if you're referring to the same thing but there was a post I clicked on recently that I should have back-buttoned more quickly from but got sucked into the OMGWTFness of it. *bashes head into desk*

GAH.

Also, well said. :P

[fan_eunice]

Heh, it's like part of you is thinking "This could not possibly get worse"

But oh..oh, yes it CAN!

*smishes you*

[gelasius]

*smishes back*

[laurashapiro]

Step AWAY from the comms and come over and sit next to me. There aren't any spoilers over here!

[fan_eunice]

I have stayed entirely unspoiled! It's been AWESOME.

This was not spoilery, just HEADFUCKINGDESKY. And I've been trying not to pay attention to this stuff as the season has gone on, but OMFG. I. Just. There's only so much woman hating I can take before I gotta yell. And the slut shaming in particular...I CANT EVEN DEAL.

[laurashapiro]

I've heard about this stuff from several sources, and it is totally enraging. I'm glad you yelled! Your yelling is valued!

[madame_parker]

Amy Pond worshipper here! I adore her and say screw fandom! She clicked with me one so many levels and nothing anyone says will ever stop me from loving her.

[fan_eunice]

\o/ AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMY

[marymac]

2. Insisting that women who are smart, confident and proactive are unrealistic. Dismissing every single female character exhibiting such traits as unrelatable/smug/too much. Perhaps the word you're looking for is uppity?
Ahahaha yes. By those standards, every woman who taught me, especially the nuns, are unrealistic, and I'm not at all sure what they'd make of me and I know I'm real. Damn, now I want to set Sister P on all of them.

Not even touching the clothes thing, except to repeat my general flail of "She's 5'11" and made of legs! EVERYTHING is short on her!"

[be_themoon]

Not even touching the clothes thing, except to repeat my general flail of "She's 5'11" and made of legs! EVERYTHING is short on her!"

As a 5'11", very leggy girl, I can testify that this is VERY TRUE. Skirts that hit other people's knees are miniskirts on me, shorts that would be halfway down the thighs of anyone else are only 1/4 down mine. It's frustrating currently, as I mostly circulate in a group of people that consider modesty as a prime virtue. In college, I fully plan to flaunt my legginess, and the first person to tell me I can't will not end up happily. I'm getting so angry at all the people going "she wears such slutty clothes!"

[marymac]

Yeah, my sister's housemate is not quite that tall, but is similarly Made Of Legs, so despite them being theoretically the same size, many are the conversations which have started 'Aideen, with all the love in the world, and it looks very good on you, but we can see your pants.'

[be_themoon]

Yeah - I have a pair of shorts that were bought for me by my sister, who's a very modest person, because on most people they would have been normal shorts. haha, no. on me, they're the equivalent of mini-shorts.

[marymac]

Opaque tights are a god-send, really.

(Actually, all the 'Oh my god, short skirts!' folks, they have noticed that like every sensible daughter of Northern Europe she wears opaque tights with them, right?)

[fan_eunice]

I can sympathize from the opposite spectrum, being Very Short and not particularly slender. Which means it is a rare day when I find a pair of trousers that aren't about four feet too *long*.

Really, when it comes to women's clothing there is a sweet spot within a few inches and pounds where clothes might actually fit you ...and the rest of us mostly get to flail around desperately lamenting not being mannequin shaped.

I fully support your future leggy flaunting! :D

[be_themoon]

oh, man, yeah. two of my best RL friends are 5'2", and shopping with them can be really interesting, because neither of us can find anything that actually fits in the way it's meant to. something that looks great on her will be too long on her in the smallest size and too short on me in the biggest size. *sigh*

wheeee!

[regicidaldwarf]

Just had to jump in to say another 5'11" leggy girl right here and YES THIS IS VERY VERY TRUE.

[be_themoon]

*high fives* REPRESENT.

[fan_eunice]

Damn, now I want to set Sister P on all of them.

I just had the most awesome mental image of a group of angry nuns descending on fandom with rulers in their hands....and now I am very sad it can't actually be.

[marymac]

Peppy wouldn't need the ruler.

I love her like she was my auntie, but she scares the life out of me.

[minim_calibre]

Seeing Amy Pond in a room at Pacificon (WOE FOR THE LACK OF YOU THERE ::SADFACE::) was what finally dragged me into watching NuWho.

Therefore, haters need to meet my fist face first. Yes.

[fan_eunice]

IT WAS VERY SAD. I am hoping to make it out to Seattle sometime soon, anyway since it has been almost four years since I've last been back.

I approve of the haters face/your fist OTP. Since I'm all about the OT3s I'm just gonna add my fist in there too. :D

[faynia]

Every once in a while I get reminded why I have NEVER joined a Doctor Who comm on Dreamwidth of LiveJournal. The fact that posts like these are frequently needed and Fandom!Secrets keeps me far, far away.

I've adored this series, some episodes more than others definitely, but the fandom itself is more of a turn off than a semi-poorly done episode. Ugh.

[shinealightonme]

And they shouldn't be sexually confident lest people think they are whores

UGH, seriously. I have heard people saying, in EXACTLY these words, "Who does Amy think she is?" Because she is no allowed to kiss the Doctor! Oh, no, NEVER. Of course, if Jack wants to kiss the Doctor, we'll all watch it on repeat for a solid hour. *is disgusted*

[metonomia]

This.

I really, truly don't mind if other people don't care for Amy in the same way that I adore her. However, this rampant, vehement hatred in the way that the dislike for her is discussed...I cannot take it.